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Can Podcasting Help Your Business Bypass the Big Tech Gatekeepers? (Thinks Out Loud Episode 413)

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You’ve heard me say many times that “gatekeepers gonna gate.” That’s what they do. Woudln’t it be great if there was an easy, inexpensive way to bypass Big Tech’s gatekeepers? Wouldn’t it be wonderful if you could extend your brand’s awareness and reach without having to rely too heavily on Amazon, Google, Facebook, Apple, or Microsoft? Would you believe me if I said there might be an option you’re overlooking?

What is that option? Podcasting. Now, I want to be fair. Podcasting takes some work. It requires consistency, patiences, and at least a little effort. It’s absolutely not the right choice for every business. But, where it works, it offers an exceptional way to bypass the gatekeepers in Big Tech and reach your customers for relatively low cost.

What makes podcasting work? Why is it a good option for some businesses? What questions should marketers and strategists ask as they consider podcasting? And, of course, how can your business use podcasting to bypass the Big Tech gatekeepers? That’s what this episode of the Thinks Out Loud podcast is all about.

Want to learn more? Here are the show notes for you.

Can Podcasting Help Your Business Bypass the Gatekeepers? (Thinks Out Loud Episode 413) Headlines and Show Notes

Show Notes and Links

You might also enjoy this webinar I recently participated in with Miles Partnership that looked at "The Power of Generative AI and ChatGPT: What It Means for Tourism & Hospitality" here:

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Running time: 38m 02s

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Transcript: Can Podcasting Help Your Business Bypass the Gatekeepers?

 Well, hello again, everyone, and welcome back to Thinks Out Loud, your source for all the digital expertise your business needs. My name is Tim Peter. This is episode 413 of the Big Show. And thank you so much for tuning in, I think we have a really cool show for you today.

This one might go a little long, I don’t know, there’s a lot to talk about. And I’m going to tell you right up front, it’s about podcasting. It’s about podcasting for your business, but also it’s not. It’s also about how you can bypass gatekeepers. How you can connect with your customers more effectively, more efficiently, and more inexpensively, how you can save money doing it.

I hold several core beliefs. I love cool, creative businesses. I am so lucky that I get to work with some amazing brands and businesses in what I do. I’m always learning from them and from the work that we do together. And one of the things that I’ve learned is that it’s pretty much always a bad idea to build your brand on rented land.

You’ve heard that expression many times, not just from me, but from, I don’t know, everybody, right? But I want to be really clear. The reason that I say this, the reason that so many people say this, is because we see it again and again and again. I believe that far too many marketers, far too many companies, rely too heavily on the gatekeepers, on Big Tech, on the AGFAM — Apple, Google, Facebook, Amazon, Microsoft — what have you.

And at least in part, the reason that’s a problem is because I also believe gatekeepers gonna gate. These folks are gatekeepers and it’s in their DNA to raise cost to you over time. Which means that over time, it’s going to cost you more to acquire customers. I’ve worked for years with people in the travel and hospitality industry and seen how expensive folks like Google and Expedia and Booking.com can be.

This doesn’t mean you’re not going to use these players. We’ll talk about that in a moment. It just means that they can get quite expensive.

I’ve seen the same for clients I’ve worked with in retail, with Amazon. I’ve seen the same with B2B companies learning how to connect with customers directly, especially during the pandemic and post pandemic.

I believe, in my core, that you can market and acquire customers beyond Big Tech. And I love helping people and companies and brands figure this stuff out. Big companies, little companies. As long as you’re doing cool stuff, I love that I get to help people sort this out.

Now I mentioned a moment ago, I don’t think Big Tech is evil. I think they can be incredibly useful. Particularly to help you reach customers you can’t reach more efficiently or more affordably on your own. You just don’t want to rely on them too heavily. I talked about this in detail last week, specifically focusing on Google’s lack of vision and what that could mean to you in the longer term.

Which kind of brings me to my core point. I also love podcasts. I think they are a great medium as entertainment and I think they can be incredibly valuable for marketing.

Which leads, today, to kind of a funny reality. Two different topics — my love of podcasts and Google’s lack of vision — are colliding at the moment.

Google, over their history, has had at least three different podcast listening solutions for its users over the years. Originally, it was Google Play Music; if they had something before that, I don’t recall it. But certainly they had Google Play Music. Then, beginning around 2020, they switched users to Google Podcasts. And now they are switching users again to YouTube Music.

Now, in this case, I want to be fair, I suspect this behavior is as much about lack of money as it is lack of vision. Though, that focus on the near term that I talked about last week is also playing a role.

One of the reasons that Google struggles, one, one of the reasons they consistently struggle is based on their scale. Google is a massive company in a way very few of us have to deal with. And they’re a public company. Every quarter they have to report on their business to Wall Street. And getting big introduces problems that, you know, normal-sized companies don’t have to think about very often.

Just like any public company, every quarter they need to show that the things they’re working on, as the Wall Street folks say, are material to earnings. More simply, do the things that they do help grow their revenues and profits?

And the reason that it’s different for Google and the size of Google than it is for most of us is because it can be really tough to show when you’re generating $300 billion in revenue and $74 billion in profit in a year that any one thing you’re working on is going to actually drive those numbers up in a meaningful sense.

I want to be clear, I have no idea what Google’s past podcast platforms contributed to that $74 billion in profit and $300 billion in revenue. But let’s pretend that their podcasting platform generated, I don’t know, $20 million in revenue. Now, to most people, that number would sound pretty great. I mean, in theory, even Google wouldn’t hate it.

At the same time. $20 million in additional revenue as a share of Google’s revenue is 6/1000th of 1%. I want to be really, really clear about what that is. That is 0.006%. You know, in other words, that’s not what you’d call material to earnings. That’s not a big number in relative terms as far as they’re concerned.

Now, I suspect they keep changing their podcast app because they don’t want too many people at the company working on too many things that in Google’s $300 billion universe don’t matter that much. And as a result, Google is shuffling their existing efforts into YouTube Music to reduce the number of disparate platforms they have competing for listeners and so that their product teams can spend time on the things that are going to matter materially.

The funny thing about this is this has a huge advantage for podcasts as a marketing platform, certainly for my business, and I suspect for many of you, for yours too. Because no one owns podcasts the way that Google owns search, or Meta owns social, or LinkedIn owns business connections. Podcasts provide a direct connection with your customers.

There are a ton of advantages, but the first one is they’re a great way to bypass the gatekeepers. Yes, there are gatekeepers in the podcasting space. Apple is number one, Spotify is number two, Google, particularly through YouTube, might be third. But, for instance, I get less than half of my listens of this podcast — which we’ve been doing for over a decade and 400-plus episodes — I get less than half of my listens on Apple Podcasts. I get 20 percent in Chrome directly, the web browser. There’s over a dozen distribution platforms that we’re using, including Apple, including Google, including Amazon, including Spotify, including YouTube, Music, and Pandora, and Podcast Index, and Deezer. We get 15 percent combined from places like Overcast, Podcast Addict, CastBox, and PocketCast. And it doesn’t cost us anything extra to be on all those platforms. We publish once and we distribute broadly. That’s a huge advantage.

Another advantage for podcasts. What I love about this podcast is that it builds authority for your brand and business. You get an opportunity to spotlight your expertise and your ability to help your customers. All I do on this podcast is talk about what I do and what the people on my team do. We’re generating content that helps us find new business. Really great.

Podcasts offer you another content distribution channel. You’ve heard me say many times that content without distribution, content that doesn’t get seen, provides zero value to your business. The great thing about podcasts, as I just talked about, is that your listeners can follow you anywhere. Whether it’s on your own website, whether it’s through an Apple or a Spotify or a Google or an Audible. There’s lots of places that they can find you.

Podcasts create immense opportunity for content reuse. I’ll talk about this in a very specific example in a minute, but whenever we do an episode, that episode tends to live on in other content forms. So the script for the podcast episode, such as it is — and again I’ll explain that in a minute — can be turned into a blog post, or vice versa. Blog posts can be, can lead to, scripts. Either of those can lead to videos.

I do this all the time with presentations for clients and speaking gigs. They often start as podcast episodes. This show is called Thinks Out Loud for a reason. Or the presentation turns into an episode, or more than one. I sometimes make an entire episode out of a single slide. I’ve got three speaking gigs coming up in the next month on “AI and marketing” and “AI and customer experience” and I absolutely guarantee that you’re going to hear a lot about the research we’re doing for those in future episodes. And those will also drive blog posts and social media content and the like. So huge, huge reuse opportunities.

Also, I find that most episodes tend to have a longer shelf life than most other content. You know, just as with most areas of content marketing, the more recent episodes get more traction, for sure. But we’ve got episodes from as far back as 2015 and 2018 in the top 25 episodes that people have listened to so far this year to date. That’s huge. Huge, huge, because we’re getting lots of value out of something that we created, you know, what now, six years ago, nine years ago? Still getting listens and still getting meaningful listens.

Another huge advantage to podcasts, something that I’m incredibly proud of, and this gets to a really important point in the current environment we’re living in, is that you get to build a personal connection with your audience.

You may have heard there’s this thing called artificial intelligence, right? Anyone can create content easily and expensively. Content that’s, you know, at least pretty good, if not really good. We know that AI makes it easier and faster to produce quality content. But when I’m talking on a podcast episode, and the more that you imbue your personality into the episode, the tougher it is for people to replicate what you do. You stand out by being human.

All you have to do is be yourself when you’re listening to this. You’re getting pretty much me, the me that everybody sees every day. I mean, sure, I have my slight business persona. I don’t talk at length about, you know, my family or people in my lives as much as I might do if we were sitting down having a drink, you know, right? But that’s because my wife and kids haven’t signed up to be on the podcast. That’s not about being fake. That’s about respecting other people’s wishes. Otherwise, I’m pretty much just me. I reference guitars, and music, and travel, and pop culture, and sometimes baseball on this show, and I joke on the show, or have fun on the show, because that’s important to me.

I’ll tell you, one of my favorite marketing podcasts is hosted by a guy named Steve Cummins, and he includes a cocktail recipe in pretty much every episode. Why? Because he likes good cocktails. That’s a really human thing, and it makes him stand out from other people doing what they do. You should go listen to him. He’s great. After you listen to me, ok? But, you know, you get to build a personal connection.

I’ve mentioned this many times, my friend Mark Schaefer talks about community being the next, last great form of marketing. Now, I tend to question his focus on last, but I certainly agree with his point that community matters. I’m going to let you in on a secret: It’s somewhat easier to build a community around people than it is around a business because you’re not trying to connect people with a business; you’re trying to connect people with people. It’s about making friends. You or someone on your team who’s the podcast host puts a human face on your business and creates more opportunity to build that community. That’s amazing.

Of course, doing that, you’re also establishing a direct platform to engage with your customers. You’ve heard me talk many times on this show about “the Hub and Spoke strategy.” You know, the hub includes things like your website, your email list, your apps, assets that you control. They’re not the rented land, they’re the land you own.

Spokes include things like distribution channels, so Google, or Facebook, or LinkedIn, or Apple’s App Store, or Amazon, or TikTok. They’re ways to extend your reach. The great thing about podcasts is they fit nicely into this ecosystem because they help you do both.

The channels you use to distribute your episodes are additional spokes. Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube Music, Pandora, what have you. Those are places your business may not be today, and suddenly you have new spokes to reach your customers.

Meanwhile the content, the episodes themselves, are another part of your hub. Wherever you post your podcast, that’s in effect part of your hub. And most podcast hosting services make it easy to embed episodes on your website. For instance, we get roughly 5 percent of all listens of Thinks Out Loud right on timpeter.com on the website. They also are another reason people come to the site. In the last year, more than 15 percent of all traffic to my company’s website started with a podcast episode, almost all of that as organic search. So there’s an SEO benefit as well. Huge, huge way to extend your reach on both the hub and the spokes.

And then happily, last benefit that I want to talk about, is podcasting is not terribly expensive; it’s a relatively cost effective way to reach new customers. The initial investment is probably measured in hundreds of dollars to the very, very low thousands of dollars, you know, one to two thousand dollars per year.

A quality podcasting microphone is going to cost you less than $100 for most podcasters. And if you want to go to something a little fancier, probably no more than a few hundred dollars. There are also free podcast hosting services, but if you’re really going to commit to this, in all reality, you’re still only going to pay maybe tens of dollars per month. You know, decent hosting, depending on the size of your podcast audience, depending on how many episodes you’re going to create, probably isn’t going to cost you more than maybe $500 to $1,000 per year.

The software you need ranges from free, something like GarageBand or Audacity, to subscription services that, again, cost in the tens of dollars per month. All told, you can do this really efficiently economically. Most businesses will probably spend in the range of five or six hundred dollars in the first year. And, unless you get really big, you’re almost certainly not going to spend more than maybe $1,500 for the first year.

The biggest expense, and we will talk about this in some length in a moment, is time. So hang on to that notion.

All of these points lead to the big question of this episode, which is should you have a podcast for your business? And the answer I’m going to give you you’re going to hate on what level after all this, but the answer is “maybe.”

I want to be really fair. There is no one absolutely true universal answer here. There are a lot of variables that come into play. I’ve already made the case for why you should do podcasts:

  • They help you establish authority and expertise
  • You’ve got easy content reuse
  • You’ve got broad content distribution
  • They help you establish a personal connection with your customers
  • They’re relatively inexpensive
  • And they help you bypass the gatekeepers.

What I do want to say, though, is there are a series of questions you need to ask to determine if a podcast makes sense for your business. And that’s really where I want to focus the rest of this episode.

The first big question is, how is your podcast going to tie into your marketing efforts and into your business objectives? Don’t think of a podcast as a standalone effort. It almost certainly should connect with your other marketing activities and definitely should connect with your overarching business objectives. Does the podcast help you reach a different audience? Does it help you extend your brand? Does it humanize your company? Does it help you grow your revenues or your profits? Remember, podcasts are a cost effective way to reach an audience, but that cost effectiveness only matters if the audience ultimately takes some action that matters to your business.

By the way, I want to be clear, this doesn’t have to be purely commercial. I know of one company that has a really cool podcast targeted at college students to help humanize the company and show why they’re a great place to work. So it ties back to a business objective, even though it’s not necessarily tied to a revenue objective. So you need to make sure your podcast, if you do one, is tied into your marketing and your overarching business objectives.

The second question you need to ask is, who are you making your podcast for? Who do you want to talk with? Like that example I just gave about the company with the college students. You also need to ask, do those people, who ideally are your customers, listen to podcasts?

There are a lot of people out there who listen to podcasts. More than 80 million people in the U. S. listen to podcasts on a weekly basis. And global numbers are pretty good too.

Roughly 40 percent of the listeners to this podcast are in the U.S., which is a significant plurality. But we have listeners in Sweden, the U.K., Portugal, Switzerland, Australia, India, Germany, Singapore, the Netherlands, and so on. It’s a global reach and happily concentrated in countries where our company does business. You just want to do the research to make sure that the people you want to reach are a good audience for podcasts. Because if they’re not, then making a podcast, you know, this is not a, if you build it, they will come. If they’re not doing the activity you want them to do, listening to podcasts in this specific case, then having a great podcast might get you an audience, but it’s not one that’s going to build your business. So be very clear about who you’re making your podcast for.

The next question you need to ask is, do you know what you’re going to talk about? Now that might seem obvious. But you’re going to create between 12 and 48 episodes a year. You know, you’re gonna create anywhere from a monthly podcast to a weekly podcast with probably a few weeks off. So you need to say, is this something we can talk about for a dozen or a few dozen episodes every year?

And as you’re asking that question, you also need to ask, what makes your topic, your episode, the one that listeners will choose? Why will listeners choose your podcast over all the other podcasts out there?

The numbers vary. There are probably between 3.5 million and 4.5 million different shows out there. Hundreds of thousands of those active shows today, so you want to say, what helps set me apart? Now, that’s in total. That doesn’t mean there are millions on your specific topic, and that number might sound large, but think about how many pages exist on the internet about your topic. I did a search for “hotel marketing,” which is something I talk about, and it returned 909 million results. I did one for “Digital Strategy,” and it brought, brought back 1,730,000,000 results on Google. So, you know, even if there were 3 million podcasts out there about those topics, that’s still small compared to Google. There’s an opportunity to cut through. I just need to make sure I’m sufficiently differentiated.

You need to make sure you’re sufficiently differentiated as to why customers are going to listen to you versus someone else. They can’t listen to you both at the same time, realistically. So you want to be very clear on that answer.

The next big question, is how long is each episode going to be? Now, there are different opinions here. I’m going to give you my opinion and my experience on this: Less is more.

My good friend Ed St.Onge always likes to say that the job of every second of content you create is to earn the next second of your audience’s attention. The biggest mistake I see companies and people make with podcasts is that their shows are too long. I try to focus on being around 20 to 25 minutes for solo episodes, I mean ones where I’m not interviewing somebody, and usually around 45 minutes or less for interviews.

I figure that a good podcast episode should be consumable during a workout or before people worked from home all the time during an office commute. You know, if it’s longer than that, it’s tough for people to listen to all in one sitting. So keep it in mind that less is more. I’m laughing as I say this because this episode is going to run about 40 minutes and it’s just a solo episode. It happens sometimes. Hopefully you’re on the treadmill a little longer this time.

Just remember that less is more and that the job of every second of content is to earn one more second of your audience’s attention.

To the point of earning that attention, think about what your format is going to be. Are you going to do a solo show? Are you going to do interviews? Are you going to do a panel? Any of these can work, and you can vary the format some. I’m mostly a solo show, and then we do some interviews, usually about one a month these days. But be very conscious of, why is this format the right one for the topic you want to talk about? I find a solo show works well for what I’m talking about because it tends to be my area of expertise. And because, literally, this is called Thinks Out Loud, we’re really kind of exploring this together. I don’t claim to have all the answers, I want to make sure that I’m posing the questions and hearing from you about what some of those answers might be as well.

The next big question, and this gets to a core, is are you prepared to do the work? This is a biggie. I told you one of the biggest expenses was going to be your time. Podcasting rewards consistency, whether you do it once a week, every other week, or once a month. You need to commit to that. Data shows, and we’ve found with this show, that if you maintain a regular publishing schedule, your audience will grow over time. If you’re inconsistent, it’s very, very hard to establish an audience that will stick around. You can find a cadence that works for you, but once you find it, you’ve got to stick with it.

And it’s also going to take some time to produce the episodes, especially at the beginning. I don’t know overall stats. I don’t know what everybody else’s world looks like. But I am happy to share my team’s experience. I tend to work from an outline rather than a firm script. Yes, you can use ChatGPT or Gemini or Microsoft Copilot to help build that outline. It’s still going to take you maybe a half hour, up to maybe two hours, depending on how scripted you’re going to be, to develop that script, that outline.

Recording takes about as long as you expect the episode to be, plus, in my experience, 25-50% more. You know, so a 30 minute episode usually takes around 35-45 minutes to record.

If you’re interviewing guests, researching those guests is going to vary widely. But figure that you or someone on your team is going to spend at least an hour or two on that. In fact, I’d recommend that you do. You need to do your homework. If you don’t do your homework, you’re going to have very, very bad interviews, and that’s going to be very bad for your podcast, and very bad for your guest, and very bad for your brand.

Do you ever watch that YouTube show, Hot Wings, that’s really popular right now, really cool show? One of the reasons is because its host and his producers Find amazing details about their guests to discuss with them each week. That just makes for a better show. So, expect you’re gonna put in some work there. Editing varies widely. In our experience, editing and prepping an episode that includes, you know, collecting the show notes, it includes writing up the little intro and everything, that usually takes 30 to 40 minutes per week.

So if you think about it, a typical episode that we do takes anywhere between one-and-a-half to two person-hours or thereabouts every week to publish. That’s a time commitment. That’s a pretty significant time commitment. So you need to make sure you’re willing to make that commitment.

If you’re going to do an interview or a longer episode, such as last week’s quarterly Big Tech earnings call episode, that could be four to five person hours.

I want to be fair, the upside is that those quarterly episodes spur a ton of content reuse. I’m going to reference stats and observations from that episode for at least the next quarter. Notice today’s episode started with a reference to Google’s lack of vision, i.e., last week’s episode. It’s an investment that pays off over time.

The same tends to be true with interviews. Interviews tend to get broader distribution because they’re introducing the podcast to new audiences. If nothing else, guests share the episode with their network, which expands your reach. The investment can pay off. You also want to be clear that it is an investment.

So are you committed to doing the work? If you don’t think you can maintain your chosen publishing schedule, if you don’t think you can maintain the amount of time it’s going to take you to put together a quality episode, even if it’s an hour a week, the podcasting might not be for you or your business.

I’d add that’s all true in terms of doing the work for your host, too. Having a consistent host ends to work better. It’s tougher to build personal relationships if there isn’t a single person or a, you know, a common group of people that your audience comes to know. You also need to learn the skills. You know, if you’re gonna interview, learning how to be a good interviewer. If you’re going to moderate a panel, learning how to moderate. You’re going to have to learn some basic editing skills. And learn how to convey information. Learning to host if you’re going to be the host yourself.

I want to be clear, none of this is especially hard on its own. These are also skills like any others. You need to commit to getting better at the ones that matter if you’re going to have a good show. Audiences tend to be okay with casual discussions. They want your show to be a good hang as much as anything else. They also aren’t going to live with something that’s too raw or amateurish. You’re competing with potentially thousands of other shows. Make sure that that good hang is worth your audience’s time.

I mentioned some of the expenses before. You know, investing in a good microphone, investing in good headphones, investing in good hosting. Those are table stakes. You just need to do that.

And then the last part of doing the work is you’ve got to promote. Like all content marketing, podcasts require promotion. Are you willing to dedicate the time and resources necessary to promote your episodes? I’d argue that if the answers to all of the other questions I’ve just asked are “yes,” then this one probably should be a yes too. But you do have to plan and budget for this effort just like you would with other forms of promotion. Again, promoting the podcast is table stakes. If you’re not willing to do it, it’s probably not the right medium for you.

For me, personally, my answers to all of these questions are yes. Yes, I’m very much committed to that. I find that podcasting is incredibly worth it for my business. I’m also still learning. I’m always trying to get better. The team is always trying to get better. The work that the folks behind the scenes do, they’re all working hard to get better. I tend to think, and we have found, that these efforts are worth it, and undervalued by far too many companies.

If you’re trying to connect directly with customers, to build deep relationships, a lasting community, and bypass Big Tech, consider podcasting. I can’t say that every business should have a podcast, I can say that it’s a really good idea for every business to take a long look at the platform and decide whether it makes sense for their business.

Which I guess is one more item I can add to my core beliefs.

If your business has a podcast, let me know about it. I’d love to hear what you’re doing and what you’ve learned from the process. I think it’d make for a great discussion. Thanks for hanging with me while we talked this through. I just so appreciate everything that you do for us.

Show Wrap-Up and Credits

Now, looking at the clock on the wall, we are out of time for this week.

And I want to remind you again that you can find the show notes for this episode. As well as an archive of all past episodes by going to timpeter.com/podcast. Again, that’s timpeter.com/podcast. Just look for episode 413.

Subscribe to Thinks Out Loud

Don’t forget that you can click on the subscribe link in any of the episodes that you find there to have Thinks Out Loud delivered to your favorite podcatcher every single week. You can also find Thinks Out Loud on Google Podcasts, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube Music, anywhere fine podcasts are found.

Leave a Rating or Review for Thinks Out Loud

I would also very much appreciate it if you could provide a positive rating or review for the show whenever you use one of those services.

If you like what you hear on Thinks Out Loud, if you enjoy what we talk about, if you like being part of the community that we’re building here, please give us a positive rating or review. Reviews help other listeners find the podcast. Reviews help other listeners understand what Thinks Out Loud is all about. They help to build our community and they mean the world to me. So thank you so much for doing that. I very, very much appreciate it.

Thinks Out Loud on Social Media

You can also find Thinks Out Loud on LinkedIn by going to linkedin.com/tim-peter-and-associates-llc. You can find me on Twitter or X or whatever you want to call it this week by using the Twitter handle @tcpeter. And of course, you can email me by sending an email to podcast(at)timpeter.com. Again, that’s podcast(at)timpeter.com.

Show Outro

Finally, and I know I say this a lot, I want you to know how thrilled I am that you keep listening to what we do here. It means so much to me. You are the reason we do this.

You’re the reason we make Thinks Out Loud happen. So please keep your messages coming on LinkedIn, on Twitter, via email. I love getting a chance to talk with you, to hear what’s going on in your world, and to learn how we can do a better job building the types of content and community and insights and information that work for you and work for your business.

So with all that said, I hope you have a fantastic rest of your day, I hope you have a wonderful week ahead, and I will look forward to speaking with you here on Thinks Out Loud next time. Until then, please be well, be safe, and as ever, take care, everybody.

Tim Peter is the founder and president of Tim Peter & Associates. You can learn more about our company's strategy and digital marketing consulting services here or about Tim here.

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