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Steve Cummins: You Have to Start on Rented Land. Here’s What to Build While You’re There. — Part 1 of 2 (Digital Reset Episode 503)

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Marketing exists to drive revenue. That might sound obvious. But given how obsessed many of us can be with AI tools, content calendars, and channel optimization, it’s a surprisingly easy fact to lose sight of.

Steve Cummins has spent more than 20 years making sure we don’t do that. He grew a B2B tech company to $75 million in revenue before acquisition. Their own VP of Sales said Steve took an unknown technology company to the point it was recognized as the global market leader. Today Steve works as a fractional marketing leader through Solent Strategies, helping startups and teams of one punch above their weight.

In Part 1 of this two-part conversation, Steve and Tim get into the questions marketing leaders are actually wrestling with right now: Where does the owned channel argument break down? How does a marketing team of one figure out where AI fits into their day-to-day, and not just in theory, but in reality? And if you have to start on rented land, what should you build while you’re there?

I hope you enjoy this candid conversation between two practitioners who’ve watched platform after platform change the rules on the businesses that depended on them.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode

  • Where the owned channel argument breaks down. And how that aligns with the TPA “hub and spoke” framework
  • The B2B vs. hospitality distinction. Why earned media is table stakes in some industries and genuinely optional in others
  • The educational sale problem. What to do when your customer doesn’t know they have a problem yet
  • Why your toughest competitor is inertia. And what that means for how you position your brand
  • The three ways to approach AI right now. And why Steve and Tim are skeptical of most standalone AI tools
  • Why a marketing team of one probably shouldn’t be shipping code. And, most critically, what they should be doing instead
  • Why one paid AI subscription puts you in the top 10% of all users. And what that tells you about your business
  • The difference between genuine focus and going deep on rented land. More importantly, how to tell which one you’re doing
  • Sometimes you have to start on rented land. Here’s what to build while you’re there.

Steve’s Three Ways to Approach AI Right Now

  • Use the AI already built into your current stack.


    • Every major platform — HubSpot, Salesforce, Adobe’s stack, Mailchimp, Klaviyo, Riverside — is rolling out AI functionality. Start there. It’s in your existing subscription, you already know the platform, and it’s built to improve your workflows. This is where every marketer should begin.

  • Be skeptical of standalone AI tools.


    • A lot of these are still in development cycles. You may spend significant time helping them make their product better. Many will be acquired or disappear. Don’t build your processes on platforms that have only been around for three months.

  • Invest in agentic tools (and why Steve specifically recommends Claude Cowork).


    • Agentic tools run tasks, not just conversations. Steve’s real-world example: filling an entire column of LinkedIn pages for an ABM target list, in plain English, with no mistakes. For a team of one, this is where the real leverage is. And at $20 a month, there’s no excuse not to try it.

    The Focus vs. Rented Land Distinction

    Tim and Steve spend time on a question that trips up a lot of lean marketing teams: the difference between genuine focus ("do two or three things really well") and using focus as an excuse to go deep on someone else’s real estate.

    Steve’s answer: pick two or three things you can have an impact on, get very good at them, be consistent. Then, once you’re at roughly the 90% level, add a fourth. You’re constantly building the stack, not going infinitely deep on one channel you don’t control.

    And if you do have to post on rented land: think carefully about the assets you’re creating there and where else they can live. The content you create for Instagram or LinkedIn can become a blog post, a newsletter section, a video script. You may have to do it because you’re posting on rented land. Make sure you’re using those assets for something else.

    Resources Mentioned

    Related Episodes

    Buy the Book — Digital Reset: Driving Marketing and Customer Acquisition Beyond Big Tech

    Tim Peter has written a new book called Digital Reset: Driving Marketing Beyond Big Tech. You can learn more about it here on the site. Or buy your copy on Amazon.com today.

    See Tim Peter in Action

    Watch Tim Peter and Steve Cummins discuss what AI actually means for lean marketing teams — and why the rented land argument doesn’t mean what most people think it does.

    Free Downloads

    We have some free downloads for you to help you navigate the current situation, which you can find right here:

    • A Modern Content Marketing Checklist. Want to ensure that each piece of content works for your business? Download our latest checklist to help put your content marketing to work for you.

    Subscribe to Digital Reset

    Contact information for the podcast: podcast@timpeter.com

    Technical Details for Digital Reset

    Recorded using a Shure SM7B Vocal Dynamic Microphone and a Focusrite Scarlett 4i4 (3rd Gen) USB Audio Interface.

    Running time: 28:23

    Transcript: Steve Cummins: You Have to Start on Rented Land. Here’s What to Build While You’re There. — Part 1 of 2 (Episode 503)

    [TIM PETER]:
    Marketing exists to drive revenue. That sounds obvious, but in a world obsessed with AI tools and content calendars and channel optimization, it’s a surprisingly easy fact to lose sight of.

    My guest today has spent more than twenty years making sure that never happens. Steve Cummins has built marketing functions at companies ranging from Japanese tech giants to crowdfunded Danish startups. He grew an entrepreneurial IT business to seventy-five million dollars in revenue before it was acquired, and their own VP of sales said Steve took an unknown technology company to the point where it was recognized as the global market leader.

    Today, Steve works as a fractional marketing leader through his firm Solent Strategies, helping startups and B2B companies punch above their weight. He also coaches and mentors people I think about often when I make this show: marketing teams of one.

    What you’re about to hear is a candid, honest conversation about what AI actually means for marketing teams right now. There’s no hype here. There’s no fear here. It’s a practical reality of how a lean marketing function can use these tools to build something that lasts without handing ownership of your customers to yet another gatekeeper.

    Today is part one of a two-part interview with Steve Cummins. I’m Tim Peter. This is the Digital Reset Podcast. Let’s dive in.

    So, Steve Cummins, welcome to the show. I am so glad you’re here. You know, we’ve known each other for a long time. We’ve been I think friends for quite a while, have enjoyed working with one another over the years, and I’m just thrilled you’re here today.

    [STEVE CUMMINS]:
    Well, thanks Tim. Um, I, I would say I’m a longtime listener, first-time caller, I guess. Um, and yes, we’ve been in the trenches together a few times. Um, and you’re always kind enough to answer my calls when I need some help on, on SEO or whatever may be the, uh, the panic of the day.

    [TIM PETER]:
    Well, and vice versa. And I just, it’s always a pleasure to catch up with you. It’s fun that this time there’s gonna be an audience for it, so, uh, thanks for taking the time.

    So you have just the best newsletter. I love your newsletter. I read it every month. It’s really great. Um, and you wrote recently that marketing exists to drive revenue and everything else is noise. Uh, as you know, I’ve been making a similar argument for owned channels for years. What I’m curious about is where would you push back on me? You know, because I think there’s a version of focus on what you own that becomes an excuse for avoiding the hard work of actually getting your content and getting your message in front of people, you know, distribution and the like. So in your view, where does the owned channel argument break down?

    [STEVE CUMMINS]:
    Yeah. So first off, obviously that is a big oversimplification that, you know, marketing only exists to drive revenue. And I have to say that so I don’t get in trouble with all of my friends and colleagues in marketing. Really what I’m trying to say is, look, marketing doesn’t exist for its own sake, right? It doesn’t exist in a vacuum. You are there to do certain things, and what it all boils down to is driving revenue. And I do think some marketers, particularly the talking heads that you see on LinkedIn, lose sight of that sometimes, and they just love to talk about marketing for marketing’s own sake. I’m not pointing fingers at you, Tim, but there are people out there that do that.

    But to dig more into your question — where does the focus on owned break down? I think a lot of it depends on your domain or the industry you’re in, right? So I know you do a lot of work in hospitality and hotels. So in that world, there’s some very obvious places where people go on that first level of search, right? So could be Google Maps. That’s often how I search when I’m looking for — I go into Google Maps, and the listings are there. Maybe it’s TripAdvisor, you know, there’s a few other places. Restaurants, similar kind of thing.

    So in that case, you know, the earned media is sort of a given, right? You have to do it, but it’s — of course — and then you can really focus on your owned media.

    Now, a lot of what I deal with is B2B tech companies. So let’s take an example. One company I worked with, they do a fairly niche area of ed tech, educational technology, right? Something that goes into classrooms. So that first level where somebody might say, "Oh, I need this thing. Let me go find out about it," there’s not a lot of obvious places to go for that beyond good old-fashioned Google search, right? There’s not a platform like Yelp — there’s no, there’s no TripAdvisor. So you actually have to do a lot more work. Probably not even G2 or things like that — they don’t really cover that space. I mean, G2 is much more focused on software, right? So if you’re in hardware, industry websites, magazines is probably the closest you have for it. So you do have to do a fair amount of work on what little earned media there is out there.

    And then the other thing is, there’s only any point in doing owned media if you can get somebody to that place. So again, in the case of hotels, somebody finds it on Google Maps or TripAdvisor. First thing I would do is go through to the website, right? So immediately you’re on it. And God bless you for that. I may be in the minority. I don’t know.

    Um, but again, with a tech product, you know, how do you get somebody to your website in the first place? So something like a podcast might be, right? ‘Cause people are looking to find out more about ed tech, and maybe that’s how they find it. But I think it’s a lot tougher to get people to owned media. So yes, you should do owned media, but in certain areas, particularly where it’s a niche product, I think you have to do a lot more effort to build the blocks to get people to come to your owned media.

    [TIM PETER]:
    Well, and it’s an educational sale, right? I mean, for many of the kinds of things you’re talking about, sometimes people don’t know they have a problem in the first place, or they don’t know that they’ve got a need they’ve got to address. So there’s probably some work you’ve got to do just to get the message out of, "Hey, I don’t know if you know you have a problem." I mean, is that a fair…

    [STEVE CUMMINS]:
    Yeah, you know, that’s something that I struggle with quite a bit actually, because I will talk to some companies and that’s what they want to do, right? Because it’s sort of marketing 101. Oh, you’ve got to define the problem and educate. However, a lot of the companies I deal with are startups, and in most cases, there’s already somebody established in that field and they’ve found a better way of doing it. Cheaper, smarter, whatever it may be. So should they really spend their time educating somebody on the problem when in reality they’re probably only gonna get found if somebody is looking at the bigger players in that field and then are looking for, oh, is there a better way of doing this?

    So rather than trying to explain and solve the big problem, what I would then tell them to do is focus on the thing, on the part of the problem that you solve, right? So, you know, ’cause there’s other people out there frankly with much bigger budgets that are gonna talk about the bigger pie. So really focus in on that one bit, and maybe that’s how you get people to the website. Because then it’s more of that longer tail type search where somebody’s saying — so I’ll use the ed tech example again, right? So somebody knows that they need a screen share widget. So they go out there, there’s two or three big players out there. Those are the people they find. But actually they’ve got this one problem, and this one problem is that it’s very difficult to switch between Microsoft Teams, Google Meet, Skype, right? And that’s actually the thing that this company is really good at. So you spend your time focusing on that so that when somebody starts searching, okay, I know these are the three people, but this is really the problem I have. That’s the bit that you’ve really got to get sharp on.

    [TIM PETER]:
    Yeah. No, that makes perfect sense. I actually — you know me, I collect pithy phrases from all over the place. And one of the ones I talk about all the time is your toughest competitor is inertia, right? Your toughest competitor is people doing what they’ve always done, and that’s true if you’re a big guy, and it’s certainly true if you’re a small person. The analogy I would use in this case from the hospitality industry is, when you work with independent hotels, you certainly don’t have to educate people on what a hotel is, obviously. Um, but getting them to understand why would I stay with this interesting little, you know, 30-room boutique property in the city center versus the Marriott where I get my points and things like that. You know, they’ve done the heavy lifting of letting people know hotels exist. But why this hotel becomes the bigger challenge, right?

    [STEVE CUMMINS]:
    Yeah, and I think it’s the whole status quo thing, right? So another pithy phrase used to be, you know, you never get fired for choosing IBM. Now it’s probably, you know, you don’t get fired for running on AWS, right? So yes, that’s the thing that you’re trying to overcome for sure.

    [TIM PETER]:
    Yeah, it makes perfect sense. So you mentioned a client in one of your newsletters whose in-house marketer is now shipping code, you know? And I’m hearing similar stories of folks who are actually building things hands-on themselves, vibe coding themselves and the like, right? And I do a fair bit of that myself. At many of the companies you work with, because they’re startups or because they’re early stage or because they’re a smaller player in a much bigger ecosystem, the marketing team might be one person, right? And I think that’s something a lot of people who listen to the show can relate to. You know, how do you figure out where AI actually fits into your day-to-day? And I’m not just talking like in theory, but like today, you know, what’s the honest answer?

    [STEVE CUMMINS]:
    And I’ll be super transparent about this. I don’t know that I have the answer yet, right? So I’d love — um, one of the reasons I’m asking is ’cause I wanna know. Well, and because it’s constantly changing, right? The answer I would’ve given you a month, two months ago would’ve been different, and I’m sure it will be two months from now.

    That particular instance — the marketer who’s shipping code — is probably a little bit of an outlier. So they’re a cybersecurity SaaS company, Series A, right? So they’re growing fast. Two-thirds of their employees are software developers. So the whole mentality, whenever I talk to the founder, he wants to know have I done this in Claude, right? Everything they do is in Claude. So for this particular marketer, it was just expected ’cause everybody else is doing everything in Claude and it was expected.

    So I don’t think that is the answer. It’s not the answer right now for most marketers, and I’m not sure it’s ever gonna be. But particularly if it’s a team of one, which is very common, right? And oftentimes I work with companies where they have a junior marketer who’s very good at the doing, and I get involved to sort of help them with the planning and the strategy and what have you. You sort of need that layer between, you know, we’re doing a lot of things, and are we doing the right things moving forward.

    So if you’re a team of one, first off, you probably don’t have the time to work out how to start coding stuff and ship it and all of that, unless you’re in a software-forward company. What I encourage people to do, I think there’s probably three ways you can look at AI at the moment.

    The first is pretty much every software program platform that you use is rolling out AI functionality. So the simplest way to start using AI and benefiting from AI is, you know, whether it’s HubSpot, MailChimp, whatever it is you’re using, Canva, they all have AI built in. Some is good, some is not so good. But that’s the first thing. Play around with that because it’s already in your stack, you already know how you’re using it, and it’s probably there to help with your workflows. You and I are recording this on a platform called Riverside. Every week they’re rolling out new AI things that make the editing process easier. So every marketer can do that. It’s typically included in your existing subscription. So that’s the first thing to do.

    Um, second thing is, and I’m less keen on this, is there are a lot of standalone AI tools out there that will tell you, you know, "We’ve developed this AI from the ground up. This is gonna solve your problem." Not a big fan of those because, A, they’re still in their development cycle, so you may spend a lot of time effectively helping them make their product better. B, a lot of them will go away. You know, they will get bought out, disappear, whatever, and you’ve just built your stack on that. So if you’re interested, play around with it on the side, but do not build your processes on these platforms that have only been around for three months. And I apologize to any of my clients that might actually have those products right now.

    Um, but I actually think the big thing — and what I’m playing around with a lot at the moment — is agentic tools, right? So I’m a big fan of Claude Cowork. And I think for a lot of people, when they think of ChatGPT or Claude, they think about the chatbots, right? You go in, you ask a question, it helps you write, and that’s all very valuable, particularly for a marketer of one.

    But Claude Cowork actually helps you run tasks, right? So a real simple case, two days ago, I was working with a client, we’re building out an ABM program for them, and very simple, I was building a list of potential targets, and I realized that I hadn’t filled out the column that had their LinkedIn page on. I just put it into Cowork. And if you haven’t used Cowork, what you realize is you just speak English to it. You just say, "Hey, I have this table. I need to fill in column B with LinkedIn pages," and off it goes and does it. And as far as I could see, there were no mistakes. There was four or five that it couldn’t find, and then I went and found those myself. So start simple, right? And I think Claude Cowork is $20 a month.

    [TIM PETER]:
    It is. That’s what I’m paying, yeah.

    [STEVE CUMMINS]:
    Yeah, there you go. Yeah, exactly. Hopefully your company will pay for it. If not, pay for it yourself. I mean, really, for 20 bucks. So that would be my thing: first, features that are in your current stack, and second, invest in Claude Cowork. They all have similar things. I just think Claude Cowork is probably the best and easiest to use right now.

    [TIM PETER]:
    I completely agree with that, by the way. And while this episode is not brought to you by Anthropic and Claude, it could be if anybody out there is listening and wants to, you know, throw us a check… No, I’m kidding.

    You know, the other thing I’ll say on that, a lot of people are very worried that they’re getting left behind on AI, right? I think you and I have talked about this before. And I have a couple of answers to that.

    [STEVE CUMMINS]:
    First is, yeah, you probably are because we all are. It is just impossible to keep up. But the other thing I will say — and there was a really good chart published about this a few weeks ago — if you have a paid subscription to any of the AI tools, you’re in the top 10% of all users. And if you have paid for two AI tools, you’re in the top, I think, 1% or something crazy. So if you are playing around with it, if you are doing stuff with it, you’re already ahead of the game, and you’ve just gotta keep at it.

    [TIM PETER]:
    You know, I’m very fond of telling people, "Don’t compare your insides to other people’s outsides," right? We run into this all the time. I do work with the Conference Board, the Digital Marketing Strategy Council there, and we get together a group of digital marketers at Fortune 500 companies once a quarter or thereabouts to have conversations about what’s top of mind for them. And invariably what we find is that, you know, Person A on the council, when we’re talking about a specific topic, will be so far behind the average in the room. And then you go to another topic, and they are so far ahead of the average in the room, right? Nobody’s good at everything. You know, you just have to accept the fact that there’s things you’re gonna be better at, there’s things you’re gonna be worse at. Don’t let the things that you’re worse at be a hole you fall into or that distract you from what you should be working on. You know, you’re probably working on the right things most of the time, right?

    [STEVE CUMMINS]:
    I think it’s true. And I tell you, LinkedIn is the worst for that, right? I mean, I do spend a lot of time on LinkedIn, more than I should. But…

    [TIM PETER]:
    Same, by the way. So if you truly believed what everybody told you they were doing on LinkedIn in terms of AI, you’d think you’re a Luddite compared to it. But people talk a good game, and to your point, they may just be very focused on that one aspect of it.

    Which kind of leads to the next question I wanted to ask you because you have talked quite a bit about do a few things really well. You know, I have talked about own the channels that you build on, and to me those kind of feel like they’re the same argument or there’s a lot of overlap there, right? Fish where the fishing’s good, double down on where your opportunities are, things like that. Um, at the same time, I have seen people who I consider fairly smart use focus as a reason to go deep on a rented platform. You know, we’re gonna be on Instagram, we’re gonna be on LinkedIn, we’re gonna be on whatever channel is working right now and the like. So how do you help your clients, how do you help people you talk to, distinguish between genuine focus and just doubling down on someone else’s real estate, building your brand on rented land, and the obvious risks that that entails?

    [STEVE CUMMINS]:
    Yeah, so I think it is a challenge. There’s a fine line between focusing on a few things and going deep into two or three things, right? So when I say to people, "You’ve got to focus on one or two things," what I’m trying to avoid is spreading yourself so thin and trying to do so many things that basically you end up doing a lot of things not very well, right? So my thing more is about pick two or three things that you think you can have an impact on, that you have an interest in, ’cause I think it helps if you’re interested in these things. Get very good at them and be consistent with them.

    But once you get to that level — and I don’t know what it is, let’s say it’s the 90% level — then you pick the fourth thing. So you’re constantly adding to the stack. So I think it’s diminishing returns to go deeper. It’s that T-shaped thing, right? Get very good at two or three things, but then broaden out.

    And I think part of this came from my corporate career before I started consulting. Typically, I would join a company early on when there was maybe one or two marketers, and we would grow the company. And if you’re in that growth environment, the nice thing is if you take that approach, if you get very good at one or two things, then you get to hire somebody to take those things over and maintain and iterate. Meanwhile, you can move on to the fourth thing and the fifth thing. So yeah, I’m not a fan of going deep.

    Whenever I’m talking to a new client or someone who’s asking me for help, I always do this first tier audit. You probably do the same thing, right? So I go look at their website, and one of the things I always do, I scroll down to the bottom to look at their social icons. Where are you telling your potential customers to go find out about you? And the number of people that I find that have five or six icons on there, right? They’re on LinkedIn and Twitter and Blue Sky and TikTok and all this, and then you go and click on each one of them, and the only thing they post on there was two years ago, three years ago. But you’ll find one. You don’t know what it is. It could be LinkedIn, could be YouTube, where they are very active. And so then it’s an easy conversation to say, "Look, you thought you would be able to handle four or five of these things. Let’s get rid of those other icons. Let’s get really good at the one you’re already active on. And when we think we’re ready with that, then let’s go to the second one."

    I think you have to have that honest conversation. The other thing that I always laugh at is why they picked that one thing, right? Why did they decide that TikTok is gonna be the thing for them? And, you know, sometimes it’s rational. It’s very industry dependent. I worked with a company — it was actually really interesting. They had multiple businesses. One of them is hotels, and the other is a tax advisory business. Very different. Having my call with them, and they have a junior marketer who’s working on the hotel side of the business, and she’d just been brought over to the advisory side as well. And she’s telling him, "Oh, we’ve really got to do a lot on Facebook to get this." Now, they’re trying to bring in high net worth individuals to come in and do their tax advisory. You’re not gonna find those people on Facebook. But for this marketer, it was sensible for her. They’d been very successful with the hotel with Facebook, so therefore we’re gonna do that on the other one. So you also have to be very thoughtful about, once you decide you’re only gonna do two or three things, you may not find the perfect things to do, but at least make sure that they are logical.

    [TIM PETER]:
    It’s so funny you say this. I see this all the time for all kinds of businesses. And you know, why do we do it? "Well, ’cause our competitors do it, right?" Or because it’s the thing that the marketer happens to like personally, right? It’s their preferred social network or things like that. And plenty who do it for very rational reasons of we’ve done the research on our customers. But yeah, I love the way you’re thinking about focus.

    I had to look it up — I apologize, but I couldn’t remember the source of the phrase — but there’s a phrase my dad used to use all the time about the guy who jumped on his horse and rode off madly in all directions. And that kinda doesn’t work out, you know? There’s a lot of that.

    [STEVE CUMMINS]:
    You see I have a lot of books behind me. So one of my favorite books is a book called Range. Um, and it was sort of ahead of its time. I can’t remember the name of the author, but it’s called Range. And he talks about — it’s very trendy and very popular to be a specialist at something. But he’s done a lot of research into this idea that actually you’re much better off, at least early on in your career, being very broad and learning a lot of things. And then over time you can specialize into certain areas. But I’ve always thought of myself as a generalist, and I gotta say, in most of my career that has worked against me because people generally are looking to hire an SEO specialist or a social media person or a video person, and my thing has always been, well, I get bored easily. I like doing a bunch of different things, so I want to be able to turn my hand to whatever is the thing that’s needed, which is honestly why I’ve worked with a lot of small companies and startups because in that environment you have to do that anyway. Being able to wear a lot of different hats — knowing what hats to wear in the first place is actually a valuable skill, right?

    Absolutely. I realize I didn’t answer part of your question as well, which is the whole rented — deep on rented. The only thing I would say is I think for a lot of smaller companies, you have to start on rented land.

    [TIM PETER]:
    100%. Yep.

    [STEVE CUMMINS]:
    But think about the content, or the assets that you’re creating for that rented land and what can you do with it, right? So are you creating videos? Are you creating written material that can be a blog? So you may have to do it because you’re posting on that rented land, but make sure that you’re using those assets for something else.

    [TIM PETER]:
    If you want more from Steve — and you should — there are two places you can find him.

    First, his newsletter, The Marketing Mix, goes out every two weeks on Substack, where he covers B2B marketing with the kind of honest, real-world perspective you just heard today. Pro tip for you: there’s a cocktail recommendation at the end of every issue. You won’t want to miss it, and you’ll find the link in the show notes.

    Steve is also on LinkedIn, as you might imagine. Just search Steve Cummins. You’ll find the link to his profile in the show notes, too.

    And if you want to work with Steve directly, check out Solent Strategies. All the details for how you can get in touch with him are in the show notes for today’s episode.

    Now, Steve and I only covered the first half of our conversation today. Next week, Steve and I get into something that I think is one of the most important questions in marketing right now: What happens to the people building marketing skills when AI is doing more and more of the actual work? Steve calls it the validator problem, and it’s something every marketing leader needs to think about very carefully. That’s part two coming at you next week.

    In the meantime, if you know somebody who’s running a marketing team right now and trying to figure out where AI actually fits in their day-to-day, do me a favor, send them a link to this episode. I think it might save them a lot of time and a whole lot of second-guessing.

    You can find the show notes for today’s episode, including all of Steve’s contact info, at timpeter.com/podcasts.

    And if you’re ready to go even deeper on building a brand that customers will ask for by name, my book, Digital Reset: Driving Marketing and Customer Acquisition Beyond Big Tech, might be just what you’re looking for. You’ll find it on amazon.com and bookshop.org. Links in the show notes to those too, of course.

    Thank you so much for listening today. I genuinely appreciate all of your support. I would not do this show without you. Until next time, please be well, be safe, and as always, be excellent to each other. I’ll see you soon.

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